De Anima (On the Soul)
Lecture 60: Music, Beauty, and the Spiritual Senses

Transcript
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And that's kind of a sign that the sense of sight and the sense of hearing are more, what, spiritual senses, huh? And the sense of touch or the sense of, what, taste, right? And the sense of smell is sort of in between, huh? So the fine arts are tied up with the, what, sense of sight and hearing, right? Yeah. And the imagination in fiction. Speak of the beautiful. Now, sculpture would be part of fine arts, but that's kind of in between, huh? Yeah. But that, I suppose... I think the way Hegel divides the fine arts is kind of interesting, the way he orders them. Oh. Because he puts, you know, fiction above music, but music above, what, painting, right? And painting above, what, sculpture, right? You kind of see the way you're moving there, right? What does he have, fiction, what is it? He put fiction, right? Meaning, you know, great fiction, like the epics of Homer or the plays of Shakespeare or Sophocles. He put that above music, right? Yeah. But he put music above, what, painting, huh? And painting above, what, sculpture? And that above, what, architecture, right, huh? I think that makes sense, what he's doing there. I have some colleagues who want to maintain painting is higher than music. That's right. That's ridiculous. Wow. So, would that mean that the sense of hearing is higher than the sense of sight? No, it's kind of interesting, because I remember when I was teaching the premium there to metaphysics, right, and Aristotle was speaking about the sense of sight, you know, as having a kind of preeminence, as far as knowing, and most of it did in the ear. And I was giving us a sign that the sense of sight is better than the sense of hearing, the fact that we'd rather be deaf than blind, you know. There was one girl who was a great lover of music and played the organ and so on, and she said she'd rather be blind than deaf. But then she tried to argue, you know, that music is, what, better than painting, therefore the ear is better than the, what, eye, you know. And, of course, this is a good argument to use with Berkowitz, because Berkowitz, you know, maintains that music is, what, higher than painting, right, huh? But notice, the eye is more like the imagination and more like the reason, right? And a sign of this is the fact that we metaphorically will carry the word eye over to the imagination and to the reason, huh? Like in Hamlet there, huh? When the friends of Hamlet have seen the ghost of Hamlet's father, have seen them with their eyes, right, okay? And, you know, how the play begins there, you know, some of the friends have seen it at nighttime, and they've told Horatio, the best friend of Hamlet, about this, and Horatio, you know, it's just your imagination, right? And, of course, the ghost does appear, right? And Horatio says, you know, I would not have believed this without the sensible, you know, voucher of my own eyes, right, you know? And there's something, you know, there's some reason why the ghost is appearing, right? And so they decide to go to tell Hamlet about this, right? But before they're able to tell him about it, Hamlet says, I can see my father now. And they're looking around, you know, like the ghost has appeared suddenly. And he says, in my mind's eye, he says, huh? Well, he's, meaning he can what? He can picture his father, he can imagine his father now, right? The way he was, and the way he looked, and so on, right? Okay? But notice, he's calling the imagination there, in my mind's what? Eye. Eye. And then our friend Gregory the Great, right? In the Moralia, Gregory the Great says that anger disturbs the eye of the soul. Meaning that anger disturbs your judgment of your reason, right? But metaphorically, he's calling reason the eye of the soul, right? And of course, even non-metaphorically, we carry the word to see over from the act of the eye to the imagination, right? And finally, we call understanding itself a seeing, right? And we saw Aristotle also use the word light there in talking about the understanding, huh? So the eye seems to be more like the imagination and more like the understanding than any of the other senses, huh? And in that way, the eye seems a more spiritual sense, right? Okay? But it's kind of interesting when you compare this with what nature gives us, huh? In some ways, what nature does in a beautiful sunset, right? Or in the beautiful mountains, or in the fall foliage, it gives us maybe more beautiful things than our paintings, huh? See? But it's interesting with sound, huh? That with the music, say, of Mozart or Handel or somebody, or Corelli, we get more beautiful sounds than we hear in nature, huh? You go into the forest, you know, and you hear these sounds that are... Yeah. But it's not as beautiful as the sounds that we ourselves make in music, right? And what's interesting, too, about music is that it's like thinking in the sense that it's what? It's one thing leads into another, right? You see? Discursive. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Discursive, huh? And when Aristotle's talking about more education there in the 8th book of the Politics, right? And he speaks of how music is more important even than painting in more education. And you can see that the effect of music is much more powerful than painting upon people. And, you know, a great problem in our society now is that people listen to the wrong kind of music, right? And they're musical, they don't have any taste in music to begin with. And they're listening to stuff that's really very, what, making their souls kind of vicious, right, huh? Mm-hmm. Okay. I always remember, you know, back in high school and so on, you know, these dances and so on, you know, on the songs, the actual words of the song were, I'm going to make a monkey out of you, just you wait and see. But in a sense, this is what the music was doing, right? But the other words were telling you what they were doing. I mean, that's what it does, right? It's making you... Eepish. Eepish, yeah, yeah. It's making you perverse in your body, right, huh? And it's disposing your soul, in a sense, for what? For evil, right? For vice, huh? You know, when rock and roll first came on the scene, huh? Everywhere they performed it, they had riots, huh? Yeah. And my cousin was in the Navy at the time, right? And the sailors got so wild, they were throwing these kind of chairs, you know? Wow. You know, you can fold this thing up, right? You're making these things flying through the sky. Right? You know? But you can just see the way people were behaving, right? Sure. And you see sometimes, you know, these riots and so on, right? And I've known parents who have gone to these concerts to see what they're like, you know? They shouldn't be lying to the kids to go to them, you know? But you can smell the, you know, not just ordinary smoke, you know? But all this drug, and, but even, you know, I mean, there's always some rock band or whatever is coming to town, you know, and you see their picture in the paper there, and they look like monstrosities, just the way they, you know, the way they dress and so on. So, and, so, music is a very powerful thing, you know? A very powerful thing. And, so, I mean, I remember Father Belay made a collection there, you know, of texts from the ancients, you know, talking about. The importance of music and education now, but Aristotle talks about it in the Eighth Book of the Politics, and Aristotle talks about it in the Republic, right? But it's extremely important, the kind of music that young people listen to and so on. Do you know what you mentioned on nature, as far as sound level, it's deficient to human music. Do you know what that tells us about nature? If nature can give us a more beautiful sight, but a less beautiful sound, does that tell us anything about nature at all? Well, maybe so, but it tells us even more about what music is. It's interesting that fiction, the original forms of fiction, they all have a musical origin, right? So, you know, tragedy means what? A good song. Yeah, it comes in the word for ode, O-D-E, right? And, you know, sonnet means what? Song, right? Lyric poetry is named from the musical instrument, the lyre, right? And, you know, when Homer presents Demodocus there in the Odyssey there, you want to sing about the fall of Troy, right? He takes out his musical instrument from the wall and he starts to pluck his instrument and so on. So, in the beginning, these things were all, what, accompanied by music, huh? You know, musical origin, huh? But even our modern-day movie, I mean, the musical accompaniment is very important for the effect of the movie, huh? Sure. Of course, the Greek plays, you know, we don't really know how much the music was, but it was very much what the scholars say, right? Very much a part of it, huh? But, see, one's emotions are moved in harmony with the music kind of automatically, huh? And so if the music represents the emotions in a state that is reasonable, your emotions are being moved in a reasonable way, huh? But if the music represents the emotion that is disordered, right, and your emotions are moved in sympathy with the music, you're being disposed for, what, vice, huh? For moral vice, huh? Is that why it's difficult to explain to people why music is so damaging, because it kind of bypasses the reasoning process? Yeah, and it's kind of, even at a good school, like, you know, Thomas Aquinas College out there, you know, you get students who come from, you know, good Catholic families, but a lot of them have bad taste in music, right? And it's very hard to change that, because music is so natural thing, so connatural to us. See, I was fortunate in having two brothers, I mean, when I grew up, I didn't have, you know, great desire to listen to bad music anyway, but it would not have been tolerated in the house of my brother Marcus and my brother Richard, right? And so, eventually I acquired a good taste in music, you see, but it was very important that the right kind of music be listened to, huh? A copy of Belay's compilation? I don't have a copy of that, no, but I know he made such a one, you know. Thomas has some very strong things about music, huh? I have a few things here from Thomas and Shakespeare and other people, you know, talking about the power of music, huh? But a good understanding of this is that you find in Homer, huh? Because in the Odyssey, right? You know the Odyssey at all? But the Odyssey, Odysseus has been warned about the sirens, huh? Oh, yeah. And the sirens attract you by their music, right? Yeah. But then you crash along the, what? Shrocks, right? Okay. And what Cersei advises him to do is he has every member of the ship, he plugs their ears up, right? So they can't hear the music, okay? Now, he's curious, he wants to hear the music, right? But what he commands, has them do, right, is to tie him to the mast of the ship, right? So no one else can hear the music, right? And he says, now, as you go by, he says, keep me tied to the mast. And if I ask to be released, bring more rope and tie me even tighter. You see? So even though his reason, you know, has been forewarned, the effect of music is going to be so great, right? Even the great Odysseus is in danger of being, what? But seduced by this music, huh? And led astray, huh? And of course, you know, he is struggling, you know, to get free, you know? And of course, they bring more rope in the time, you see? But if the whole ship was, if the rest of the ship was not all plugged with their ears, they would have been, what? Led astray, right? I've seen articles, you know, on the use of the Nazis made of music, right? Oh, yeah. And, you know, in some ways, Hegel, I mean, not Hegel, but Wagner, you know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's why Wagner was prohibited to be played in Israel, you know? They're just trying to do something now again, you know? Oh, wow. Because there's so much associated with the Nazis, huh? But even you hear some of the Nazi music, you know, some of the military music, and really kind of catching, you know, and gets you caught up in the spirit of this thing, you know? And you realize the power of music, huh? That's what I used to get, you know, even in the American Revolutionary War, you know, they'd come in, you know, playing the thing, and the kid's house found it pretty good, and he goes watching you off, and all of a sudden he's in the army. So that's important to see, you know? Yeah, I may have to bring in some of those little quotes sometime, you know, just from Shakespeare and all this, but, I mean, it's something that people get attached to a certain kind of music that they become accustomed to, and it's the wrong kind of music. It's very hard to change them, and it acts, as you say, in a kind of, I wouldn't say subliminal, but the low reason in a sense, right? You're dealing with what can partake of reason, but it doesn't always. And it has such a natural attraction for us, huh? When I asked you about the thing with nature, and then you said maybe it tells us something more about the nature of music than the nature of nature. What would that be, the sense of that rational basis of music? Well, it's like saying, you know, what's closer to thinking, huh? Nature or words, what would you say? Words. Yeah, because words are signifying something within, right? They signify things through thoughts, right? Yeah. So in some sense, words are closer to thoughts than what? Than things, right? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to say, do you understand, do you have a text there from Thomas there? It's one of the, one of the, um, I just didn't question that it is, but talking about the things, thoughts, and words, huh? Okay. Well, in the great mind, what comes first is things, right? And then the great mind has thoughts about those things, right? And then the great mind puts those thoughts into words, right, huh? Okay. But now with the student, what comes first? Words. Yeah. He hears the words of Aristotle, the words of Thomas or somebody, and from the words, he comes in a way to the, what? Thoughts, right? Of the teacher. And then through that, to the things, right? Okay. So, music in a way, what? It's a little bit like that, huh? It's not representing thoughts, but it's representing, what? The emotions, and also, what? The virtues concerning the emotions. And, um, if it's good music, it's representing the, um, virtues that are, what? As a... Those devices, right? It's representing the emotions partaking of reason, huh? Okay. And, uh, you see, it's most of all in the music of Mozart, right? That he represents the emotions partaking of reason, huh? So, there's something rational there, right? See? So it's closer to reason, just like words are closer to thought and sense than what things are, right? Okay? Because words are signifying. So the music is signifying something, or can be signifying something, that partakes of reason, huh? Now, you once mentioned, too, in another class about poetry and psalmody, making the distinction that psalms aren't really poetry in the sense of appealing to emotions more, to the will. Well, I see, the psalms are really, what, prayers, right? Right. And you've got to be careful, I see. You can put a prayer into meter if you want to, right? And rhythm, and so on, and rhyme, and so on. And, you know, this prayer of Thomas, the Adorote Devote, huh? Sure. They sometimes call it Latin, or the Rhythmus Estome, right? Because there's a kind of rhythm there, huh? And there's a rhyme, right? Adorote Devote, Latins Deitas, Que Subhi Siguris, very Latitas, right? So it rhymes, right, huh? See? And it seems to me, in some of those, something that he's using, um, to a kid meter, right? Right? Visus, toctus, gustus, intei, falli, tuareg. Right? Um, so there's a meter there, right? Mm-hmm. But that's not really, um, in the same category, though, as Shakespearean Sonnet, right? Mm-hmm. See? Because it's Shakespearean Sonnet. If I was going to define a Shakespearean Sonnet, I would define it as, it's a likeness, right? Of thought and feeling, right? And fourteen lines of atomic metameter divided into three quatrains with ultimate rhyming and completed by rhyming couplet, right? But the Adorote Devote is not a likeness of thought or feeling, you see? It's really a, what, a prayer, right? And it's a prayer in verse and rhyme, right? And some people say that the Our Father, they think the original Our Father in the Aramaic or whatever it was, was in a certain, what, a certain rhythm, you know, and maybe a meter, right? Sure. Okay. And the song was apparently in the original either, right? And a certain, what, meter, which we've maybe lost in our, what, translations, right? Mm-hmm. See? But as Aristotle mentioned, he's talking about Empedocles, and Empedocles wrote his philosophy in verse the way Lucrecia stood there on, right? You see? But it's still not a poem, it's really what philosophy is. So your definition of poem is likeness of thought or feeling, sort of the generic poem? Yeah, yeah. Likeness of thought or feeling. I mean, if you say that, if you want to call poem anything in meter, well, I mean, there could be a mnemonic device, you know, for which days of the month, 30 days, I didn't learn that, so I wanted to say poem in days of the month, but maybe you know it, huh? Say it. 30 days, one except for poem. Yeah, yeah. That's merely putting the meter there so that you will, what, remember it, right, huh? Mm-hmm. Okay. But in the case of a Shakespearean sonnet there, he's making me sort of likeness of thought and feeling, and nobody knows if it's his own thought or feeling or just that of something, right? But what you try to do is something universal there, right? So, you know, Shakespeare has a sonnet there about a mistress, right? Mm-hmm. I love to hear my mistress's voice, although I know that music has a far more pleasant sound. Well, I often quote those lines to show the, what, accidental, right? See? Because is he enjoying the sound of her voice for its own sake? No. No. See? Because then he would enjoy the music more, right? The music better, yeah. See? Okay. So, but like I say to the students, you know, if you pick up the phone and you recognize the voice of your friend, right, you have some joy because of that, right? Not because his voice is like, you know, Pavarotti or somebody, right? It's a beautiful voice necessarily, but because you recognize your friend, huh? Mm-hmm. You see? Um, so you're not rejoicing in the voice or the sound of the voice as such, see? Mm-hmm. But insofar as it, what, happens to someone that you love, right? Okay. Um, you know, sometimes too, you know, we hear a melody or something like that, right? And we associate that melody with somebody or someplace. Sure. It may have been somebody or someplace that we enjoyed, you know? And, uh, so, uh, by accident, you can say that melody is, what, associated with that place, huh? That person, right? Mm-hmm. You see? Um, okay, but that's accidental, huh? Yeah. So, um, in a way, it's accidental to a prayer that'd be put into verse, right? It's more essential to a poem that you put into verse, huh? Mm-hmm. See? Because he's trying to please us. So, I, I don't think one should call the psalms poems, if that gets you off kind of the wrong thinking, right? But you should call the psalms, what, prayers, right? They are. Yeah. Mm-hmm. All is not lost, then, by having to rely on a translation. Yeah. Where would you lose? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, you know, the other day, though, you know, um, you know how they, they say the rosary, you know, um, there being 150, uh, 15 tens, right? Um, was, um, because of the psalm, right? Like psaltery, if you wish, huh? And when you read Thomas' commentary, you know, on the psalms, which, you know, is incomplete. He died before he finished it, right? But it goes to the 53rd Psalm or so, something like that, 51. But following Augustine, right, he divides the psalm into three 50s, huh? According to the principle that Augustine gives in his, in his, uh, lecture or sermon on the 150th Psalm, right? Or at the old number, you know, he gives the old number, right? Where the 50th Psalm is a psalm of repentance and repentance. And the 100th Psalm is a psalm of good deeds. And the 150th Psalm is a psalm of praising and thanking God and so on, right? And Augustine sees that the, uh, that's symbolic of what the, each of the three 50s are. That the emphasis in the first 50 is on the beginning stage, huh? Where you're repenting of your sins, huh? And the second 50 is where the emphasis is upon progressing in the virtues by good deeds. And the third 50 is resting in God. You see? And the three stages of, of charity, right? And the three stages of the spiritual life, huh? And in the beginning, you know, you're primarily fighting against your sins and your evil tendencies. And you never get over that entirely, right? But in the second stage, the emphasis moves more to what? Progressing from virtue to virtue and the thing. And the third one, you're resting now in God, right, huh? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, like Saint Teresa, Saint Teresa de Sud there, you know, at the end of her life there, you know. She didn't say, you know what? I could have in heaven that I don't have now because already my union with God is complete, right? You know? You see that, you know? So she's resting in God, right? But then when he subdivides the first 50, he divides it into what? Five decades, right? And each decade has a different, is doing a different thing, right? Mm-hmm. It's really kind of beautiful the way he does it, huh? It would be interesting what he would have done in the second 50. You know, we don't have that, you know? Only Thomas could have done that, I think, huh? But anyway, so there's that symbolism there, right? In the 150, 15 decades, right? Of the rosary, the 15 decades of the Psalms, huh? You know? But I was thinking the other day that there's another connection between the Hail Mary and the, what, Psalms, huh? Because when Thomas talks about how the books of Scripture proceed, right? He says, well, some, he talks about in Latin, the modus, the way, right? And he says, in some, you have the modus narrativus, huh? And that's in the so-called historical books, right? Okay? In others, you have, what? In the book of Job, you have the modus disputativus. And in other books, you have the, what? You have the, what? You have the, what? the commanding mode, right, in the books that are laying down the law, right, in exhortation. But when it comes to the Psalms, right, there he says everything is the modum laudis et orationis, right? It proceeds in a prayerful and a praising way, right? It's kind of interesting, you know, because sometimes we use the word prayer in a broader sense to include praise, right? But here he distinguishes between prayer in the sense of what? Asking God for something, right? And what? Praise, right? Okay. And you know when the Apostles ask our Lord, you know, teach us how to pray. John taught his disciples how to pray. We want to know how to pray too. So he teaches us how to pray. And he says, well, when you pray this is what you do. Our Father who art in heaven, right? And then he teaches them seven things to ask for, right? And so in Augustine and Thomas Aquinas explain the Our Father, they explain the order of those seven petitions, right? Okay. But that's prayer in the strict sense, right? As, you know, it's asking God for simple things, right? Okay. And then prayer is distinguished against praise, right? See? So this is the way the Psalms would see. Prayerful and praising, right? Okay. Now, and that's always for the most part, right? Okay. Because there can be some history in the Psalms too and some prophecy, right? But as a whole, it's characterized by this. What's interesting about the Hail Mary as we have it, right? The first part of the Hail Mary is really gauditivus. You know? Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Not asking for anything. You're praising her, right? In the same way that the angel praised her, right? Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, right? When Thomas explains that in the context of the Annunciation, he says the angel wants to get her attention. Now, how do you get the attention of someone who's humble? Because they don't have these high thoughts about themselves, right? Well, he praises her because that's, she never thought of that. Right? So it's got to get her attention, right? So you're praising Mary, right? And then you say blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. That's more the praise of what Elizabeth, right? When she comes in the visitation, right? So you take the words of praise of Mary from the Annunciation and from the visitation, right? And you make this whole praise of Mary, yeah? But then the second half, the one that the Church added, right? Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us, now and at the hour of our death. Yeah, this is a prayer in the narrow sense now, asking Mary something or something, right? So the two parts of the Hail Mary correspond to the two ways of proceeding of the Psalms where Thomas says it's always per modem orationis vel laudis, right? At laudis, see? Or ativus at laudativus. That's another example, you know, of why it's appropriate that the 150 Psalms, right, be represented by 150 Hail Marys, not only because of the 150, but because the Hail Mary involves the two modes or ways of proceeding of the Psalms, or ativus and laudativus, huh? And what you have a lot of times in the decades is, you know, you have the Psalms that are asking for something, right, before the Psalms that are praising God and thanking God for what you have, what, received, you see, you know? So like Thomas would explain, I mean, in this Psalm you're asking for this, right, and then in this later Psalm you're thanking God for receiving what you've asked for, right? You see, or you're praising God, you see? It's interesting, right? You see? And of course now, in Heaven, you have to be asking for much, right? You have everything you want, right? You see? But there will be what? Praising and thanking God, right? You see? And of course, music is very important in what? Both in love and in what? Praising God, right? You see? And so, when we honor somebody, we tend to use music, don't we, right? You see? So we honor the country, we play the national anthem, right? Or when the president comes in, we play Hail to the Chief, right? You know? And when we honor the soldiers, you know, we have the military music, right? But nothing is more appropriate, in a sense, than music to honor somebody, huh? And so it's appropriate in honoring or praising God, huh? Though we have music, huh? We won't be eating or drinking, though, you said? Yeah, yeah. Only metaphorically speaking, right? Really? You know? You know? No pizza. Yeah, I was just for relaxation, we were reading Shakespeare's history plays there, you know, and I was saying to my friend, and I said, what lines best describe the saints, you know, after they win victory over the world, the flesh, and the devil, right? Well, at the end of one of these scenes in Shakespeare, he says, let us go in to banquet royalty, right? After this golden day of victory. Well, Christ speaks that way, right, in Luke there, you know, you will eat and drink at my father's table, right? But that's referring to what? The beatific vision, right? Uh-huh. See? And the way the metaphor goes is that food is the object of what? The vegetative soul, right? The feeding soul, right? Okay? So then we speak of the object of the other one sometimes as being food, right? So we see that's food for thought, right? Okay? And Socrates was speaking of a feast for a reason, huh? So to eat at my father's table, right, is to have the same, what, object that he has. And his object is himself. He knows and loves himself, and by knowing and loving himself, he knows and loves other things, huh? So we will see God as he is, right? So that's metaphorically described as sitting at his table, right? Mm-hmm. So the things that refer to eating and so on are said metaphoric in scripture. Yeah. The things that refer to praise can be said non-metaphorically, properly, right? Mm-hmm. So that there will be vocal praise of God, right? In heaven, huh? So in some sense, you know, those songs of praise are very close to what heaven will be like, right? Mm-hmm. You know, this beautiful thing in the life of St. Teresa of Avila, you know, she appeared to one of her, actually she died, right? She appeared to one of her sisters, right? She says, you know, we're not really too different, she says, huh? Because you're praising God not seeing him, and I'm praising God now seeing him. Oh, yeah. You see? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's why I like that, the one psalm there, you know, where it says, you used to use it that the children are young, there's Psalm 99, the old numbering, Sing joyfully to the Lord, all you lands. Mm-hmm. Serve the Lord with gladness, right, huh? Do the will of God, huh? Then come before him with joyful song. Know that the Lord is God, he made us, he is, we are. As I was saying to Father Kramer there, I was saying, that's to me like an exhortation to read the Summa God of Shantina, because that's the way it's divided, right? Know that the Lord is God, he made us, he is, we are, he's people of the flock, he tends. God in himself, God is the maker, God is the end, right? But then it goes on, it says, enter his gates with thanksgiving, huh? His courts with praise, give thanks to him, bless his name, for he is good, the Lord his kindness endures forever in his faithfulness to all generations. Mm-hmm. But, you know, at least in the English Translation, the one that I memorized in the earlier years, enter his gates with thanksgiving, huh? His courts with praise, huh? Mm-hmm. As if, um, when you start, when you ask God for things, right, you're thinking kind of of what you need, right? Right. Mm-hmm. And it's not selfish in the bad sense, but I mean, you're thinking of yourself, right? When you thank God, you're starting to move away from yourself, right? Right. Um, because, um, in thanking God, um, you're not asking him for something, right, huh? You're kind of thinking of what you've already received, right? So it's less, it's less selfish, right? Even in a good sense. But they say, enter his gates with thanksgiving, his courts with praise, and you start to praise him, right? Then you're not even looking back at yourself at all, right? You're just thinking of God in himself, huh? And you're saying, holy, holy, holy, you know, like the angels sing, right? Yeah. We'll see.